Are Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater too strong?

The Hearthstone Standard rotation is rapidly approaching. In around two months, we will have a new expansion in Standard and the 2017 expansions, Journey to Un’Goro, Knights of the Frozen Throne, and Kobolds and Catacombs, will rotate out of Standard and remain available only in Wild. Deathstalker RexxarFrost Lich JainaThe Caverns Below , and many other powerful cards will depart the format – a subject we’ve explored in more detail in articles such as What’s Mage Losing in the 2019 Standard Hearthstone Rotation?

However, there are two powerhouses that will remain. It might feel like we’ve played with Genn Greymane and Baku the Mooneater for a long time, but they are from The Witchwood, the first expansion of 2018, and therefore, they will have another year left in Standard. They started out as an interesting experiment in deck-building restrictions (is it even possible to build decks around these cards?) and have since turned into staples, perhaps even nightmares for some. Even this, Odd that, has become part of the daily vocabulary of Hearthstone players.

Top Even and Odd decks

At the time I’m writing this, HSReplay lists six archetypes as tier 1:

Four of these six decks are based on either Genn Greymane or Baku the Mooneater.

Tier 2 includes more decks without these powerhouses, but also more Even and Odd decks:

Six of the nine classes have at least one Even or Odd deck as high as tier 2. For four of the nine classes, an Even/Odd deck is the best deck of the class.

The only ones missing are Druid, Priest, and Shaman. Shaman does not have any decks at tier 2 or higher after Flametongue Totem was nerfed, weakening the best Shaman archetype, Even Shaman. Yes, Even again. Priest does not generally use Even/Odd decks, although Zetalot played Even Priest in Legend just last week. There have been some attempts to build Even/Odd Druid decks too, but Druid has largely remained a bastion unaffected by the craze, more focused on just ramping up and unleashing powerful combos.

The power of Hero Power

Hero Powers may sometimes feel lackluster, but they are actually a big deal in Hearthstone. The ease of building aggressive Paladin decks, for example, compared to the difficulty of building aggressive Warrior decks, is largely explained by their Hero Powers, not the class cards themselves. There is a good reason aggressive Warrior decks used to run Sir Finley Mrrgglton to get rid of their basic Hero Power and change it into something more useful for the archetype. There is a good reason some form of Warlock Zoo always exists – the Warlock Hero Power enables the entire archetype regardless of the cards available.

When the Hero Power can be upgraded, it is an opportunity worth almost any price, such as not including any even-cost or odd-cost cards in the deck. Pinging down Flame Imps and Scavenging Hyenas with the improved Mage Hero Power, flooding the board with tokens with the improved Paladin Hero Power, or amassing incredible amounts of armor with the improved Warrior Hero Power are all immensely powerful plays.

It is notable that improving the Hero Power seems to be stronger than simply discounting it. Seven of the top nine Even/Odd decks are Odd decks, based on Baku the Mooneater making the Hero Power effect more powerful. Only two are based on Genn Greymane making the Hero Power effect cheaper.

Even if we take away all the most powerful class cards, this effect persists. Last month, we explored budget Odd decks and budget Even decks, and the results surprised me. Odd decks were the stronger in general with only Even Paladin able to wedge in between them, but the overall power level was what surprised me the most. It was almost trivial to climb to Legend with Baku/Genn as the only card of Legendary or Epic rarity in the decks – this was before the latest set of nerfs, of course, so some things have changed since, although the power of Odd Paladin has not. Throughout the years, a cheap deck to climb to legend has usually been Midrange Hunter or Warlock Zoo, and that’s about it. Baku and Genn enable classes that have had no business going for Legend on the cheap to get there, and that is a feat no other single Legendary card has been able to accomplish before. Perhaps such power should be available for even more classes, but this demonstrates the power these two cards possess.

The developers know!

The power of Genn and Baku has become a hot topic over the past weeks, especially as the second set of Rastakhan’s Rumble nerfs came out and they were neither touched nor even mentioned in the announcement. It’s hard to be a Hearthstone developer going to an interview nowadays, unless you’re ready to touch the subject of Baku and Genn.

Indeed, first Peter “LegendaryFerret” Whalen appeared on The Angry Chicken podcast and told viewers that Baku and Genn are “absolutely the kind of thing that are defining the meta game right now in probably a way that’s not super healthy” and that the developers are investigating what to do about them over the next weeks and months.

A couple of days later, Dean “Iksar” Ayala was interviewed on Value Town, where he talked about the issue at some length (starting at around 38:00 in the video). This interview was a treasure trove into the design of Baku and Genn. The developers did not realize how powerful the cards would become at the time: they had some contingency plans for Odd Paladin (Hero Power making a 2/2) and Odd Warrior (Hero Power providing 3 armor) in case those turned out to be too strong, as well as the general contingency plan to make fewer odd-cost or even-cost cards for some classes if either archetype needed to be toned down for a particular class. However, the sheer number of good Odd/Even decks caught them by surprise, especially the Even decks such as Even Paladin and Even Shaman, where they had no good plans to limit their power – it is not that easy to tweak the regular Hero Power costing one mana less compared to tweaking the numbers of an upgraded Hero Power. However, the developers are now determined to solve the Baku/Genn issue by the time the first expansion of 2019 launches.

How to fix Baku/Genn?

Hearthstone Reddit and various forums are full of ideas on how to fix the situation, it’s impossible to even keep track of them all. The sheer number of ideas goes to show how frustrated many players are about the power level of these cards, and also how difficult they are to change in a meaningful way that does not completely kill them.

Some of the ways the cards could be changed include:

  • Change the specifics of the upgraded Hero Power. This has to be done separately for each class, and does not address Genn at all.
  • Turn Baku and Genn into Quest cards or force them into your opening hand. This would punish the decks the same way Quests do – by weakening the mulligan and thus making their early turns worse. 
  • Give the same buff to both players, akin the Project cards from The Boomsday Project.  The results as a whole are very difficult to evaluate: sure, you buff up your opponent’s Hero Power, but your deck is built around that buff and your opponent’s is not, so maybe you can still come out ahead? This would also result in some super high-powered scenarios when Odd and Even decks meet and both players get both buffs. In some sense, that would be very Hearthstone-like in that crazy things would happen.
  • Limit the number of times the upgraded Hero Power can be used. Maybe you only have access to the upgraded/discounted Hero Power a limited number of times? Perhaps every other Hero Power use is a regular one? Perhaps the upgrade only kicks in after some turns? Perhaps you get to keep the upgraded Hero Power only until you draw Baku/Genn? Maybe the upgraded Hero Power is only available while Baku/Genn is in your hand? Perhaps the Hero Power is only available every other turn? All of these solutions would make the cards fairly complex, although they would make it easier to tweak the numbers to get to exactly the desired power level.
  • Do not touch the cards themselves. Instead, create combinations that require both even-cost and odd-cost cards to work. This would increase the power level of other decks to compete with Even and Odd decks.

There are also plenty of other suggestions out there, most of which would completely kill the cards. Well, it is a time-honored tradition of Hearthstone nerfs to kill the target, so I suppose I cannot fault those ideas too much for that.

Amidst all this talk of nerfs, I think it is also appropriate to appreciate how fresh Baku and Genn were when they were first released. Much like Reno Jackson, they were something new and unique, a breath of fresh air. Then, they lived long enough to become the villains.

I would like to see Blizzard take a conservative approach with the cards. Overall, it is the Odd decks that are more powerful, and those can be changed by simply adjusting the upgraded Hero Powers, much like the original contingency plan they had in place. That would not touch Even decks, but the main Even decks that can become a problem are the ones that summon cheap tokens – Paladin and Shaman. Both of these can be contained by paying attention to the mana costs of future Paladin and Shaman cards. I believe this conservative approach would be enough to maintain balance. The budget deck experiment also points at this direction: while Odd decks were easily capable of fast climbing, Even decks took a lot more effort to succeed, and it was only Paladin and Shaman that shined. Other than those, Genn is not inherently problematic.

What about you? How would you like to see Baku and Genn nerfed? Should they be nerfed at all? Let me know in the comments!

Old Guardian

Ville "Old Guardian" Kilkku is a writer and video creator focused on analytic, educational Hearthstone, and building innovative Standard format decks. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/OldGuardian Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/old_guardian

Check out Old Guardian on Twitter or on their Website!

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54 Comments

  1. […] Genn Greymane. We have discussed the power of Genn before, and its power still cannot be denied. The nerf of Equality to four mana is painful for control […]

  2. Tweeg
    February 15, 2019 at 12:00 pm

    This is a very simple fix. Look at the effects of the heroes involved. Some are oppressive, others are not. For example: Warrior gaining 4 life is absolutely ridiculous. It allows for a 5 mana flamestrike. To fix this, simply reduce it to 3 armour which is on par to the 3 damage of the hunters hero power. As for the paladin, just give it a 2/2. It’s not unheard of to have a 2 mana 2/2. These are the two biggest hero power culprits now in baku decks.

  3. Banaani
    February 15, 2019 at 11:55 am

    What about the standard rotation? If the card pools are smaller, the Odd/Even deck must use more garbage cards while other decks can use all the top cards. And how about not nerfing them but introducing new mechanics in the new expancions that require multiple odd and even costing cards to be viable? Like Jade Golems or Treant Druid?

  4. AnUn
    February 15, 2019 at 10:29 am

    Keeping them in the game for another year means every card for Odd/Even class (Warrior, Paladin, Mage, Rogue, Warlock, Shaman and to some extend Hunter) will be balanced around Genn/Baku.
    Especially for Paladin with good Even AND Odd archtypes, this would lead to 3 really sad expansions in 2019.

    I really like the concept of Genn and Baku, but nerfing XX cards in the upcoming sets just because of them just not to adress those TWO sounds injustified.
    I would prefer to just nerf them a little bit down, bit honestly I see only two options that lead to exciting expansions:
    – move them to the hall of fame
    – nerf them to the ground

    tldr; So many cards were already nerfed because of them, now I prefer to nerf Genn and Baku than any additional card or than making upcoming cards weaker because of their existence.

    • Axiotes
      February 15, 2019 at 12:16 pm

      Is there any evidence that cards are weaker because of these? Or do the cards from recent expansions just seem weaker because of how ridiculously powerful some of the expansions from last year were?

      How many cards have gotten nerfed specifically because of Genn/Baku? I don’t think it’s more than 5 or 6. As many have been nerfed for other reasons.

      • AnUn
        February 15, 2019 at 1:16 pm

        Dean Ayala clearly stated that they‘re validating options and one of them is to make less/weaker cards for strong Baku/Genn classes.
        And as you already said the same amount of cards was already nerfed just because of Baku/Genn as for other reasons.
        I don‘t know, but I prefer to nerf 2 cards instead of 6 (and more in the future)!

  5. Falkenar
    February 15, 2019 at 10:00 am

    They are going to get a big nerf anyway, the rotaton itself. Now there are 6 playble expansion, and it is more easy fullfill a deck whith just enought powerfull odd or even carsds. in a 4 expansion set rotation it will be more difficoult. Baku and genn multiplied the archetipe viable, please do not hurt them.

  6. Axiotes
    February 15, 2019 at 7:09 am

    I’ve been thinking about this, and I think the problem is overblown. First, odd/even decks are not the only good ones. Hunter, Priest, and (until recently) Druid have been dominant this year and none of them have strong odd/even archetypes. Second, a problematic odd/even archetype can be nerfed in the usual way (as with Odd Rogue) by changing the cost of key cards. And third, even persistently strong decks (Odd Paladin) can be countered. You just have to be thoughtful and figure out a strategy. It has weaknesses.

    Are Genn and Baku really more dominant in their effect on the meta than the Death Knight heroes? Those really did change how you have to play. You have to have an answer to Deathstalker Rexxar or FL Jaina. Odd and even decks are just an additional option.

    Moreover, they’re a great option for FTP and budget players to build a competitive deck. Good Odd decks are pretty cheap! My first strong decks were Odd Rogue and Odd Paladin, and they gave me my first chance to not lose constantly!

    • Jro2239
      February 15, 2019 at 8:14 am

      It’s also about the design space. They have to make weak odd or even cards for Warrior, Paladin etc. and look out for too strong neutrals for the next expansions until Genn & Baku rotate out. Also nerfing cards constantly shouldn’t be an out or an excuse.

      • Axiotes
        February 15, 2019 at 12:09 pm

        How is that different from any strong card, though? Cards always need to be designed in the context of the existing environment, taking into account interactions with other powerful cards.

        I don’t see any clear evidence that certain classes are getting worse cards because they have strong even/odd archetypes. There’s still plenty of “design space”.

        Finally, while I am sympathetic with the idea that it is problematic to nerf cards to target specific archetypes too often, it happens and it’s been happening for a long time. The fact is, despite all of the hand-wringing, it doesn’t happened that often (there almost wasn’t a Boomsday nerf at all!), and the nerfs have targeted just as many non-even/odd archetypes.

  7. Fxenchy
    February 14, 2019 at 11:31 am

    I would reword both of their text to, “Start of Game, When your deck and hand has only odd/even cost cards, your hero power is upgraded.” This allows the enemy to gift the opponent cards that would stop the upgrade and further restricts the cards odd/even decks could run

    • JoyDivision
      February 15, 2019 at 12:29 am

      I don’t get it … how can your opponent gift you cards before the start of the game?

      • Fxenchy
        February 15, 2019 at 4:47 pm

        I mean during the game, I just didn’t word that correctly

    • Brumi98
      February 15, 2019 at 4:11 pm

      And what if you play odd, but you get the coin, then your whole deck/match went really awful. That’s not how it works. But I don’t think so that making them battlecry minions would solve the problem, because it would kill both cards in the current form, like who would play Baku on turn 9 to use his hero power only on the next turn

  8. The Walrus
    February 14, 2019 at 6:29 am

    I just think they should go HoF in April. They were fun for a year but Hearthstone is ultimately a card game, not a press hero power button and sometimes play cards game. Plus, they’ll only continue to limit design space, everything will be created/nerfed based on what will this do in an odd/even deck. On the other hand, I don’t mind them staying in the pool if Blizz does something about OTK decks either. But between Odd/Even decks and druids that draw 80% of their card pool in 1 turn or priests that stall until they have 5 mind blasts in hand SOMETHING has to give soon.

    • JoyDivision
      February 15, 2019 at 12:30 am

      +1

      Even as a Wild player, I’m perfectly fine with that solution. 😉

  9. Thanatos
    February 14, 2019 at 5:47 am

    From my perspective, the problem is the HERO POWER mechanic… Each class has a different power and its impossible to make it fair. When a card upgrades an unbalanced mechanic its obvious what would happen.

    Since there’s no way to make Baku or Genn fair, I would give the opponent an extra card…

    “Start of the game: […] and your opponent draws a card.”

    Its not much, but considering the other options, its viable…

    • Rostlina
      February 14, 2019 at 2:51 pm

      Well, if you look at Baku and Genn closely, they say that you can only use odd or even cards – so you can only use half of your collection. That is making it a bit more balanced, isn’t it?

  10. Cabezadevaca
    February 14, 2019 at 5:10 am

    They should make it so the start of game is only active if your deck only has odd or even. Than card like darkness could act as counter and they can introduce other card that disrupt those deck by putting card in your opponent deck. Is the best way to allow the deck to exist without getting oppressive. Since one of the frustrating thing is that there is no hard counter play for the hero power.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:45 am

      There are very few ways to put stuff into the opponent’s deck though, so only some decks could viably tech against them – and Priest with Psychic Scream would have an anti-tech by default. If we’d get more library manipulation, it might be interesting.

  11. JoyDivision
    February 14, 2019 at 2:01 am

    ‘…Give the same buff to both players, akin the Project cards from The Boomsday Project…’ how can this be a suggestion? If I give discounted/upgraded hero power to my opponent (who might be playing with odd AND even cards) and I’m cutting my card pool in half … then I have a clear disadvantage most of the time, right!?

    This would only remotely work if there where a ton of other ‘if your deck contains only’ cards like Murkspark Eel. But even then I’ve my doubts.

    Besides that, good article.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:40 am

      I don’t think it’s quite as clear-cut as that, because you know your deck will make the most out of your Hero Power. For example, Odd Warrior vs Rush Warrior – Rush Warrior gains nothing from the upgraded Hero Power. Still, it might be big enough of a drawback that Genn/Baku would largely become unplayable.

      • JoyDivision
        February 15, 2019 at 12:26 am

        Point is … the Hero Power is useless for Rush Warrior anyway. So you still give your opponent an upgrade. Which you usually never do (besides you playing a combo deck, but even then, permanently upgrading your opponent isn’t the most clever thing).

        Anyhow. Blizzard will never nerf them this way. 😉

  12. HS
    February 14, 2019 at 1:44 am

    If genn and baku are fixed, another play on curve deck will take their place, they need to stop the play on curve meta.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:42 am

      Play-on-curve could also be called tempo meta, and Hearthstone is by design a tempo-oriented game: attacker’s advantage in choosing targets, and no interaction on the opponent’s turn. Playing for good tempo will always remain a solid strategy in Hearthstone because of the way the game is designed. That is not necessarily bad, it’s just a feature of the game.

      • HS
        February 14, 2019 at 10:22 am

        Sure you want to use all your mana, but just play a pile of stats every turn is getting old after 5 years
        Would not be cool if secrets are played to not overextend in to a board that is about to be clear, instead of be played because there is unfair support cards like hunter spellstone ? (every expansion has a unfair secret support, instead of reduce the power level off play well stated minios every turn)
        Would not be cool having more comeback cards like defile? defile is “OP” but is good for the game.
        It will always be a tempo game, but play a 1 drop,2 drop,3 drop,4 drop,5 drop… win is too silly, this can’t go on for 5 more years

        • DukeStarswisher
          February 15, 2019 at 7:19 am

          Out of all the complaints I’ve ever seen about hearthstone, yours is by far the most ridiculous.

          The game was designed for that purpose. You complaining is basically saying hearthstone shouldn’t be hearthstone anymore.

  13. DukeStarswisher
    February 13, 2019 at 3:48 pm

    I think the fix should be:
    Start of Game: upgrade hp/reduce hp to 1
    When you draw this card, your hp returns to normal.

    This adds a few levels to the gameplay. The first being keeping the card in your hand in the mulligan would give you the advantage of having it the whole game. The other being that rng will determine how long you get the hp. This also makes decks that rely on heavy draw sub-optimal for Genn and Baku.
    This also means that if you use a hero before you draw genn or baku, you will lose the new hp.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:43 am

      This sort of reverse-Justicar has been proposed a few times on various forums. It’s interesting, although it also reverses the main design intent behind Baku/Genn: get rid of draw rng when it comes to the effect.

  14. BubbleHearth
    February 13, 2019 at 2:39 pm

    Very good article and interesting discussion!

    Personally, I think both these cards provide some interesting game play and strategy, but at a cost to the game. On the one hand, it’s yet another way to form some deck synergy by coupling odd/even cards together. On the other hand, it manifests pretty repetitive game tactics (spam hero power) and creates greater limitations for balancing the game. Any time blizzard wants to create a card, or change the cost of a card, they always have to balance that with it’s effect on Baku/Genn decks.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:46 am

      Yeah, that’s the main issue. They were really fresh at the start, but now after almost a year the sustainability becomes a question.

  15. OldManSanns
    February 13, 2019 at 1:49 pm

    In my opinion, this is part of a larger problem Blizzard is facing in that they make want to make good cards that players will want to use (and therefore buy packs), but they always make some cards so good they become auto-include for most decks. E.g., why not run Vilespine and Elven Minstrel in every rogue deck? Or Psychic Scream and Shadow Visions in every priest deck? Brawl, Execute, Volcano, Void Lords, Zilliax, Lich King, practically every hero card, etc. Unless it’s counterproductive to your particular deck’s win condition, these cards are just too good NOT to include.

    They’ve tried mitigating this by coupling certain powerful effects with deck limitations, which is a very creative solution, but players are smart–or at least very well-informed. It quickly becomes abundantly clear when the cards that are worth the additional limitations (Reno, Prince Keleseth, Rhok’delar) and when they’re not (Prince Valanar, Glitter Moth, Prince Taldaram in most cases).

    Baku and Genn are just the natural progression of this. I.e., if you’re building a Paladin Control deck, there’s probably not too many odd cards you’d even consider–maybe Zilliax, Stonehill, and Lynessa? Why not trade these in for a 1-mana hero power effective at the beginning of the game? Even if you personally aren’t thinking that, it soon becomes abundantly clear on HsReplay that that deck has a superior winrate.
    Sure, you can nerf Genn and make him less appealing, but at the end of the day he’s either still more value or less value than Zilliax + Stonehill + Lynessa combined, and once he’s less value then everyone that follows HsReplay will just drop Genn and add in the latter. Then THOSE become the auto-include cards that everyone complains about. Or if neither side of the equation has a significant winrate on the current meta, then players just start playing other decks that do–re: druid and shaman after their recent respective nerfs.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:49 am

      I’m not sure if this is the real problem. At every point in time, something is the best. There’s a level of rock-paper-scissors going on, but of two decks with the same main idea, one is always better than the other. The main issue is whether Baku/Genn will always remain too good and close out other options permanently.

  16. Coyote
    February 13, 2019 at 12:52 pm

    For lack of time reasons i stopped playing a couple of months ago, and i been actually keeping track of this site all along expecting blizzard to just remove baku and genn from the game. Theres some people that may disagree on blizzard nerfing those cards, but i think its totally necesary for the game health. The problem with those cards is not that theyre powerful, nor them being deck makers, not even from being in the meta for so long; the problem with this decks is that every single game is exactly the same. Dont even compare them with other powerful cards. Think about Lich King for example, or Zilliax, or Jan’alai, or N’zoth back in kraken (or wild), theyre powerfull cards indeed, but how many time do you play them a game, just one time (or more if you use aditional cards to do it); and how many times do you use your upgraded/discounted hero powers a game, you dont even play the cards themselves.
    I remember watching kibler say on one of his videos that the problem with genn and baku are not the cards, but the hero powers, and that the game would be healthier without them. I dont have the game knowledge to agree or disagree on that but perhaps he may be right.

    • OldManSanns
      February 13, 2019 at 3:32 pm

      I really like and respect Brian Kibler, but that man is always saying something or other is “ruining Hearthstone”. 5 months ago when Quest Rogue was dominating the meta, it was Preparation. Then Giggling Inventor got nerfed and Quest Rogue disappeared, and it became Baku/Genn.

      • DukeStarswisher
        February 14, 2019 at 7:44 am

        Kibler has more experience with card games than you could possibly imagine. When he says something is broken or “ruining” the game, it most definitely is at some level, even if that level is legend.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:50 am

      Removing Hero Power opens up a whole new bunch of issues – everything in the game is designed around their existence. Number of cards, draw mechanics, everything is balanced with Hero Powers in mind. That is not to say it is impossible, but it would be a huge redesign.

      • DukeStarswisher
        February 14, 2019 at 7:46 am

        Didn’t they mention in an interview that Hakkar was originally going to be a card that just disabled your opponent’s hero power? Something like that would have been an excellent tech card for the current meta.

        • Old Guardian - Author
          February 14, 2019 at 8:14 am

          There have been some Hero Power related tech cards over the years. A card is not the same as removing Hero Powers altogether. A card that would permanently disable the opponent’s Hero Power would be crazy strong though.

  17. FreeMaxxC
    February 13, 2019 at 12:43 pm

    Simple solution: make the cards cost less and Battlecry: upgrade/reduce cost of hero power instead of having start of game effects.

    • FreeMaxxC
      February 13, 2019 at 12:50 pm

      To clarify: baku costs 3 or 5 battlecry: if deck has no even cards upgrade your hero power
      Genn costs 2 or 4 battlecry: if your deck has no odd cards your hero power costs 1

      • Coyote
        February 13, 2019 at 12:57 pm

        Funny fact: when i watched those cards for the first time, and as a non english native speaker, i misinterpreted the cards as; Genn: if you only have same cost cards… and Baku: if you only have weird cost cards (like giants and stuff)… I was like wtf is this aprils fools or smth.

      • Stonekeep - Site Admin
        February 13, 2019 at 1:21 pm

        The cards would be unplayable then unless they would have started in your hand every game. In a lot of the games you wouldn’t even draw those and just play a terrible deck.

        To be honest, most of the ideas that make them NOT apply at the beginning of the game would just outright kill them. Even decks really have to HP on T1 or else they are at a huge disadvantage. Similarly, Odd decks often use that HP on T2 and often on T3 too. Playing only Odd/Even cards would be too high of a cost if you would have to wait until the mid/late game to actually upgrade them.

        I mean, come on, Justicar Trueheart was the original Hero Power upgrade and you could play her in a regular deck. And she wasn’t even that popular outside of Warrior, simply because Aggro and most of MIdrange decks couldn’t afford to wait that long for the upgrade. Why bother upgrading when the game is already over or nearly over.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:52 am

      Justicar Trueheart says hi! The original design intent of Baku/Genn was to do Justicar-like cards but without the draw rng. Perhaps that goal is unattainable and the nerf you suggest is the way to go, not sure.

  18. Yakucho
    February 13, 2019 at 12:22 pm

    They should also nerf the start of the game voiceline of Baku, it is so frustrating.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:52 am

      This is a nerf suggestion I had not come across before, well done!

  19. Omnitarian
    February 13, 2019 at 12:08 pm

    A lot of powerful decks use Baku and Genn right now, but a lot of powerful decks use Lich King. A lot of powerful decks use Ziliax. Why are Genn and Baku more important to nerf than any other popular neutral? Why should we care if certain cards define their meta while they stick around in standard- isn’t giving each year of standard unique “contours” the whole point of the rotation system, and the reason they HoF/nerf cards that become too “evergreen”?

    Do Genn and Baku add to the diversity of the game? Yes, by definition. Is it fun and possible to counterplay the decks? Yes- they’re just tempo-focused buildarounds at the end of the day. Are they overcentralizing the meta (e.g. the way Giggling Inventor, Dr. Boom, etc etc were?) No, by definition- the tech cards you’d use against Even Warlock are the opposite of what you’d use against Odd Paladin, for instance. Point is, there’s really no objective standard to nerf Genn and Baku. “I’m sick of encountering them” isn’t good enough.

    The best solution is to do what they’ve already been doing, and design the cost and effect of upcoming cards with Genn/Baku in mind. Like, we’ve seen that they’ve been careful with minting more aggressive odd-cost cards for Paladin and Rogue. We’re also due for an anti-HP tech card anyway, since Mindbreaker is rotating out.

    • CD001
      February 14, 2019 at 5:15 am

      “We’re also due for an anti-HP tech card anyway, since Mindbreaker is rotating out.”

      … Sideshow Spelleater v2 incoming 😉

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:55 am

      Stats are one thing, feel is another. It is tricky to balance around both, but for casual or semi-casual players, feel might be even more important than statistical strength. That is a major part of the Baku/Genn issue – and yes, one option is to do nothing to the cards themselves.

  20. Rickert von F
    February 13, 2019 at 11:34 am

    Add more ways to interact with hero powers. There have been a few cards that limit hero powers (next use costs 5 more, disable all hero powers while this minion is on the board), but they didn’t see much play. Something that changed both players’ hero powers, or locked them down for a certain number of turns (maybe 3-4), would help not only against Genn/Baku, but also against hero cards.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 5:58 am

      We had a Hero Power mechanic in The Grand Tournament – Inspire. It was a disaster. I think the memory of that attempt to make Hero Powers more central has kept cards focused on Hero Powers out of the limelight, we have only had one here and there, and of course Genn and Baku now. I’m not sure whether the designers can pull off good Hero Power cards, and without more such cards, anti tech also does not make a lot of sense other than as a pure counter to Baku and Genn.

  21. Ryosuke1976
    February 13, 2019 at 11:11 am

    I asked Blizzard some weeks on Reddit to include Baku and Genn in the Classic set (as well as highlander cards like Kazakus), since I think not only they incentivate creativity when building decks, but I also thinking around those cards when creating new decks is quite fun (at least, for me).

    But since this article has made made very good points regarding those cards’ power, I am not so sure anymore.

    • Old Guardian - Author
      February 14, 2019 at 6:00 am

      It is a heavily discussed subject for sure. I’m not sure what the right approach is either, but I’d like to see small touches attempted first, both to show that the issue is on the developers’ radar and to possibly maintain Even and Odd as options at least for tier 2 decks.